The Last Service Podcast

Leading Church Closure with Courage, Part 1 - with Rev. Lorrin Radzik

In this raw and insightful episode, Matt sits down with Rev. Lorrin Radzik, a United Methodist pastor with a powerful story of navigating the complexities of ministry, church closure, and personal growth. Lorrin shares her experience leading a struggling congregation in Wisconsin, where she guided the church through the challenging decision to close after decades of decline. Her journey, filled with difficult conversations, resilience, and ultimate closure, offers deep insights into the reality of pastoral leadership and church vitality.
Key Takeaways:
The Impact on PastorsLorrin was placed in an impossible situation with unrealistic expectations at an early and critical time in her career.  At times, she questioned her calling and ability.  Young pastors rarely reverse the outcome of a dying church.  Search committees and denominational officials must consider the long-term impact on a young minister's career when placed in a declining church, or at least be straightforward about the church's history and stage of life.  
Leading with Transparency and CourageThroughout the process, Lorrin demonstrated the importance of being honest with congregants about the church's future, even when it was difficult. Her story highlights the necessity of courageous leadership, especially in times of crisis.  Lorrin confronted denial and anger in her congregation while still recognizing their faithfulness.
Closure as a Faithful DecisionWhile closing a church might seem like a failure, Lorrin reframes it as an act of faithfulness. She emphasizes that sometimes, the most faithful thing a church can do is to close, passing its legacy and resources on to a new community for future ministry.
Resources:
http://www.revlorrinradzik.com/
https://www.goodfridaycollaborative.com/
https://nationalhmongcaucusumc.weebly.com/

The Benediction: A Pastor's Guide to Church Closures

In this compelling episode of The Last Service Podcast, host Matt interviews Dave Meserve, an experienced transitional pastor who has guided multiple churches through the difficult process of closing. Dave shares powerful stories and invaluable insights on how to approach church closures with compassion, wisdom, and a focus on spiritual health.
Key Points:
Dave's unique journey from traditional ministry to becoming a "pastor at large" and transitional leader
The importance of addressing "faith ceilings" and allowing for spiritual growth in church leadership
Detailed accounts of two non-denominational church closures Dave facilitated
The critical role of trust-building and transparent communication during church transitions
How to create meaningful closing ceremonies that honor a church's history and provide closure
The significance of "staying for the benediction" - finding blessing in the ending process
Insights on matching pastoral leadership styles to church size and growth goals
The value of diverse leadership teams, including both men and women
Understanding churches as relationships with natural lifespans
Quotes: "Don't leave before the benediction - there's a blessing if you stay to the end." - Dave Meserve "Churches have lifespans. They have beginnings, long middles we hope, and ends." - Dave Meserve
Keywords: church closure, transitional pastor, faith ceiling, non-denominational churches, church leadership, pastoral care, church ceremonies, spiritual health, church size dynamics, diverse leadership, church lifespan
This episode offers essential guidance for church leaders, pastors, and congregants facing potential church closures or significant transitions. Dave Meserve's experiences provide a roadmap for approaching these challenging situations with grace, intentionality, and a focus on long-term spiritual wellbeing.

Church Closure: Gail Cafferata's Journey and Research Findings

In this episode, host Matt interviews Gail Cafferata, author of "The Last Pastor" and a retired Episcopal priest who closed a church. Gail shares her personal experience closing a congregation and insights from her research surveying over 100 pastors who have gone through church closures.
Key topics discussed:- Gail's background as a medical sociologist and Episcopal priest- The emotional and career toll of closing a church on pastors- How sailing metaphors can help understand church leadership - The importance of "differentiation" for pastors leading dying churches- Ways congregations and denominations can support pastors through closure- What constitutes a "good death" for a congregation
3 Key Takeaways:
1. Closing a church takes a significant emotional and career toll on pastors, with many experiencing stress, isolation, and difficulty finding new positions afterward.
2. "Differentiation" - maintaining healthy boundaries between oneself and the congregation - is crucial for pastors leading churches through closure.
3. A "good death" for a church involves celebrating its legacy, providing pastoral care, and empowering members to continue ministry elsewhere.
This episode provides valuable insights for pastors, church leaders, and anyone interested in the challenges facing declining congregations in America today.

Urban Skye: Innovative Ministry Beyond Church Walls with Mike Sares

In this episode, we sit down with Mike Sares, director of Urban Skye, to discuss their unique approach to ministry outside traditional church structures. Mike shares insights from his extensive experience, including pastoring Scum of the Earth Church and working with various faith entrepreneurs.
Key points covered:
• Urban Skye acts as an umbrella organization for freelance pastors, providing administrative support and spiritual community• Their model draws inspiration from St. Patrick's missionary approach of engaging culture• Mike discusses the importance of relationship-building and entering people's worlds rather than expecting them to enter the church's world• Urban Skye supports a wide variety of ministries, from prison outreach to counseling for missionaries to creative arts programs• The organization emphasizes experimentation and allows for failure as part of the growth process• Mike shares thoughts on how declining churches can learn from Urban Skye's flexible, relationship-focused approach
Mike provides a refreshing perspective on doing ministry in today's cultural landscape, emphasizing authenticity, humility, and a willingness to color outside the lines of traditional church structures. His insights are valuable for pastors, church leaders, and anyone interested in innovative approaches to faith and community.
3 Key Takeaways:
1. Effective ministry often happens outside church walls, meeting people where they are culturally and spiritually.2. Embracing failure and experimentation is crucial for spiritual growth and innovative ministry.3. Declining churches can benefit from focusing on relationships and being willing to change their approaches drastically.
 
Resources:
https://www.urbanskye.org/
https://www.mikesares.com/
Pure Scum by Mike Sares
https://scumoftheearth.net/
https://www.fiveironfrenzy.com/
 

The Jubilee Program: Rescuing Struggling Churches and Preserving Kingdom Assets with Bart McDonald

In this episode of The Last Service Podcast, host Matt interviews Bart McDonald from the Southern Baptist of Texas Foundation about their innovative Jubilee Program. This program helps struggling churches preserve their assets and legacy while transitioning to new ministries or congregations.
Key Points:
The Jubilee Program is based on biblical principles from Leviticus and Deuteronomy
It allows dying churches to transfer their property to the foundation, which then renovates and transfers it to new ministries
The program has rescued millions of dollars in church assets that may have otherwise been lost
It provides financial stability and guidance to both struggling churches and new church plants
The foundation takes a pastoral approach, encouraging churches that God is not disappointed in them
Quotes: "We don't want to hold a Jubilee property in our possession any longer than it takes to get it back into the hands of the local New Testament church." - Bart McDonald
"If God's people will get together and prayerfully seek the face of God, it's been my experience that God's people will almost always do the right thing." - Bart McDonald
Key Takeaways:
The Jubilee program applies real estate principles in a non-profit framework to give dying churches better options.
Partnering with other ministries to use empty church space is not always good stewardship - financial viability must be considered.
Churches often wait too late to ask for help. Declining churches should seek guidance early from denominational resources.
Call-to-Action: If you've been part of a church closing or merger, share your story by emailing lastservicepodcast@gmail.com
Related Topics: Church revitalization, Church planting, Baptist churches, Church property management, Legacy giving

Navigating Scarcity in the Church - Insights from Dr. Myles Werntz

In this episode of The Last Service Podcast, host Matt McGee interviews Dr. Myles Werntz, Associate Professor of Theology at Abilene Christian University. They discuss the concept of scarcity in churches and how it's affecting congregations across denominations. Dr. Werntz shares insights from his recent Christianity Today article "Scarcity's Strange Gifts" and explores the challenges and opportunities presented by resource constraints in modern church settings.
Key topics covered:
The psychological effects of scarcity on decision-making
Historical and biblical perspectives on church scarcity
Strategies for churches facing declining resources
The potential benefits and virtues developed through scarcity
The future of church staffing and ministry models
Three Key Takeaways:
Scarcity is becoming a widespread issue for churches across denominations, affecting resources, attendance, and staffing. This trend is likely to continue and requires new approaches to ministry.
While challenging, scarcity can provide unexpected benefits such as increased focus, empathy, and creativity in problem-solving. It may also foster the development of important virtues like courage and patience.
Churches may need to consider new models of ministry, including bi-vocational pastors, increased lay leadership, and resource sharing between congregations, to effectively navigate scarce conditions.
Keywords: church scarcity, declining resources, ministry challenges, church leadership, bi-vocational ministry, church attendance trends, Christian ethics, theology, church growth
Resources:
Scarcity's Strange Gifts by Myles Werntz
Myles Werntz's Substack
Howard Thurman

Navigating Church Decline and Closure with Dr. Stanley Granberg

In this episode of The Last Service Podcast, host Matt interviews Dr. Stanley Granberg, founder of Heritage 21, an organization dedicated to helping declining churches make critical decisions about their future. Dr. Granberg shares his extensive experience in church planting, missions, and organizational leadership, offering valuable insights into the challenges facing aging congregations.
Key topics discussed:
The Quick 50 Assessment: A simple tool to determine if a church needs to consider its existential future, based on three factors: church age, average member age, and attendance.
The threshold for church survivability: Why 60 in attendance is a crucial number for church sustainability and the shift from public to private spheres.
The concept of "stewarding God's mission" and how it applies to churches in various stages of life, including decline.
The five systems that impact church health: theological, missional, leadership, relational, and physical.
The importance of perspective and making proactive decisions before reaching a stage of "leadership dementia."
A case study of a church closure that resulted in positive outcomes and the continuation of God's mission through new church plants.
The challenges of conflict resolution in declining churches and the impact on closure decisions.
The inevitability of system failures in churches and the opportunity for renewal.
Dr. Granberg emphasizes the importance of courage, facing reality, and putting plans on paper to gain perspective when dealing with church decline. He encourages church leaders to view their situation objectively and make informed decisions about their future.
3 Key Takeaways:
The Quick 50 Assessment (50 years old, 50 average age, 50 or fewer in attendance) is a useful tool for identifying churches that may need to consider their long-term viability.
Church planters consider 60 in regular attendance to be an indicator of viability. 60 feels like a crowd and has adequate energy to do ministry.
Addressing church decline requires a systems-thinking approach.  Churches are a network of systems.  Like organs in a body, the systems will eventually fail.
Resources:
Empty Church: Why People Don't Come and What to Do About It by Dr. Stanley Granberg
Heritage 21

The Potluck: The Role of Media in Modern Church Worship with Dr. Jim Y. Trammell

In this special "Potluck" episode of The Last Service Podcast, host Matt McGee catches up with his old friend, Dr. Jim Trammell, Associate Professor of Communication at High Point University, a frequent contributor to Baptist News Global, and deacon at Emerywood Baptist Church, to discuss the evolving role of media in modern church worship. They explore how technology and media shape congregations, online church services' pros and cons, and the challenges facing traditional and contemporary worship styles.
Key Topics Discussed:
The impact of media and technology on church services
Differences between traditional and contemporary worship spaces
The rise of online church and its effects on community
Balancing evangelism and discipleship in media-driven churches
The inevitability of church closures and how to approach them
The "coolness factor" in modern worship and its implications
Notable Quotes: "In a lot of contemporary media-centric churches, media is so important to how they do worship that if you eliminate all the electronic media, you no longer have a service." - Dr. Jim Trammell 
Keyword Tags:church media, worship technology, online church, church closures, contemporary worship, traditional worship, evangelism, discipleship, church community

Revitalizing Church Through the Dinner Church Movement with Verlon Fosner

Discover how the Dinner Church Collective is revitalizing the way we experience church and reach the unchurched. In this thought-provoking episode, Verlon Fosner shares his journey of transforming a dying church into a vibrant community centered around the simple act of gathering for a meal and engaging with the stories of Jesus. Learn about the sociological challenges facing modern churches, the surprising spiritual experiences witnessed at Jesus' tables, and the growth of this innovative approach across the country. Gain insights into building an inclusive and accessible form of worship that resonates with those disconnected from traditional church settings.
Outline:
Introduction to Verlon Fosner and his background
The decline of his church and the realization of a sociological problem
The idea of Dinner Church and its origins in the New Testament
The structure and format of a Dinner Church gathering
The impact of Dinner Church on isolated and unchurched individuals
The surprising spiritual experiences and healings witnessed at Jesus' tables
The growth of the Dinner Church movement across the country
Resources for learning more about Dinner Church
Key Takeaways:
Despite everyone's best efforts Westminster Community was unsuccessful at revitalizing.  Revitalization came by becoming aware of the sociological needs of their surrounding community.  Verlon used words like 'rescue' and 'recovery' to describe their new sense of mission, rather than words like 'reach' and 'attract' which are often associated with church growth.
Verlon's five aspects of what makes a church a church are a great way to measure the health of your church beyond just attendance or membership:
Worship
Fellowship
Discipleship
Evangelism
Compassion
The apostolic age of the church might be the best place to look for inspiration on how to be a church in an unchurched world.  Given our society's current rates of loneliness, isolation and division, it's not that surprising to see Westminster Community Assembly of God grow across a city by building tables rather than auditoriums.
Resources:
https://www.dinnerchurch.com/

Small Things Well with Karl Vaters, author of De-sizing the Church: How Church Growth Became a Science, Then an Obsession, and What's Next

Karl Vaters joins The Last Service Podcast to discuss the unique challenges and opportunities facing small churches. With over 40 years of pastoral experience and as the author of several books on small church ministry, Karl provides valuable insights to help small congregations thrive.
Key Topics:
- Defining what constitutes a "small church"- The obsession with big church models and church growth movements - Finding metrics beyond attendance to assess church health- Navigating successful pastoral transitions and succession plans- The life cycle of churches and signs it may be ending- Creating a positive legacy when a church closes
Quotes:
"We have to be thinking more innovatively and creatively than just the church building itself." - Karl Vaters on repurposing church facilities
"Integrity is the new competence. We've been teaching primarily management tools for 30 years. People aren't leaving because we didn't get techniques right, but because of a lack of integrity." - Vaters
"There does come a point where a church closing becomes inevitable...you have to be proactive and make difficult decisions." - Vaters on knowing when to end well
Listen to this insightful episode to gain wisdom for thriving as a small congregation or navigating a church's ending with Christ-centered integrity.
3 Key Takeaways:
1. Small churches are different animals than large churches, and bigger isn't always better.  Be careful of applying big church solutions and tools to small churches and find ways to define the church's health beyond Sunday morning attendance.
2. Pastor transitions can cause existential problems for a church.  They require time, intention, and clear communication. 
3. We can think of a church's lifecycle like flowing down a river.  There will be an ending.  We must be aware of where we are in our life cycle and pay attention to the signs of what's coming.  When we've passed the point of no return, let Christ be your legacy and do the work to ensure the remaining resources build the kingdom of God.  
Resources:
karlvaters.com
Karl's books, including De-Sizing the Church
Church Lobby Podcast
Ignatian Spirituality
Les McKeown and Carey Nieuwhof on Church Life Cycles