The Last Service Podcast

What's Next? Lessons from a Successful Merger with Rev. Dr. Katie Nix and Rev. Dr. Phil Blackwell

In this episode of The Last Service Podcast, Matt dives into a conversation with Reverend Dr. Katie Nix and Reverend Dr. Phil Blackwell, pastors who led two congregations through a unique journey of merger and renewal. They share the incredible challenges and blessings of bringing together two legacy churches into a unified, mission-focused community. This merger took place amidst the complexities of the pandemic, highlighting the resilience, adaptability, and faith that fueled their journey.
Dr. Nix and Dr. Blackwell explore what they learned in this process, from honoring each congregation's history to forging a shared vision for the future. They discuss practical insights into measuring success beyond traditional metrics, fostering a welcoming environment, and asking questions that prompt creative, forward-thinking ministry. Their story offers inspiring takeaways for church leaders, members, and anyone invested in the future of faith communities.
Key Takeaways:
Embrace Legacy with Purpose – The success of University and Grace UMC's merger hinged on respecting the legacies of each congregation while building a unified identity that serves both past and future communities.
Measure Success Beyond Numbers – Traditional metrics like attendance are important but don't paint the whole picture; focus also on creating spaces for spiritual growth, and meaningful community impact.
Ask Courageous Questions for Renewal – Continuously revisit your church's mission and ask, "What is God calling us to do next?" Embracing imagination and openness can reveal new paths for ministry and outreach.
Listen to The Doctors are In and the story of Grace UMC's merger with University UMC here:
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-doctors-are-in/id1706168185
https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/kathryn-nix/episodes/The-Doctors-Are-In--S3-E2-A-Pastors-Perspective-on-Our-Church-Merger-e2q3mt6

Pastoral Transitions with Matt Davis

In this episode of The Last Service Podcast, we dive into the profound journey of pastoral transitions with Matt Davis, host of the Life After Ministry Podcast. Matt shares his personal experiences of stepping away from ministry after a moral failure and navigating life outside the church. This episode explores the emotional and logistical challenges pastors face when leaving a church and provides guidance on managing these transitions with grace and support. Davis's story is a testament to resilience and purpose, reminding us that even in difficult seasons, there is potential for growth and reorientation.
Key Takeaways:
Creating Compassionate Exits – Matt emphasizes that churches must prioritize compassion and dignity during pastoral exits, advocating for "kingdom outplacement." By offering structured support like coaching, counseling, and resume assistance, churches can model Christ-like love and compassion in difficult seasons.
Provide Financial and Emotional Support – Financial insecurity frequently accompanies pastoral exits, leaving pastors in challenging positions when they are let go or the church closes. Be generous with severance and communicate with compassion. 
The value of third party help - Difficult transitions for pastors or congregations at the end of their life can benefit from third party wisdom and guidance.  Bringing in a third party, like Pastoral Transitions, demonstrates a commitment to all people involved and a determination to end well.
Additional Topics Covered:
The spiritual struggle pastors face in redefining their sense of calling
How structured transitions can contribute to healthier, more unified churches
Insights on how churches can foster transparency and support during challenging pastoral changes
Resources:
www.pastoraltransitions.com
Life After Ministry Podcast

Leading Church Closure with Courage, Part 2 - with Rev. Lorrin Radzik

In this powerful episode of The Last Service Podcast, Matt continues his conversation with Reverend Lorrin Radzik as they explore the complexities of church closures. Lorrin shares her personal journey of closing multiple churches and the unique challenges faced when congregations are forced to confront their own mortality. Together, they dive into how pastors can lead through difficult decisions, the role of a daycare ministry, and the emotional toll of these transitions. Yet amidst the grief, Lorrin uncovers the hopeful message of resurrection within the church’s final days.
Listeners will be inspired by the candid discussion of what it means to lead faithfully, even when the end is near, and how to embrace new beginnings in unexpected places.
Key Takeaways:
Resurrection Beyond Closure: Lorrin explains that even when churches close, their ministry can live on through community connections, spiritual legacies, and even new congregations inhabiting former spaces.
The Emotional Toll of Church Decline: The episode explores the grief and anger that often accompany church closures, highlighting the resilience required of pastors to navigate these emotional waters with compassion and courage.
Reframing Success: Church closure doesn’t mean failure. Matt and Lorrin discuss how honoring a church’s history and legacy can help members find peace in knowing they fulfilled their mission.

Leading Church Closure with Courage, Part 1 - with Rev. Lorrin Radzik

In this raw and insightful episode, Matt sits down with Rev. Lorrin Radzik, a United Methodist pastor with a powerful story of navigating the complexities of ministry, church closure, and personal growth. Lorrin shares her experience leading a struggling congregation in Wisconsin, where she guided the church through the challenging decision to close after decades of decline. Her journey, filled with difficult conversations, resilience, and ultimate closure, offers deep insights into the reality of pastoral leadership and church vitality.
Key Takeaways:
The Impact on PastorsLorrin was placed in an impossible situation with unrealistic expectations at an early and critical time in her career.  At times, she questioned her calling and ability.  Young pastors rarely reverse the outcome of a dying church.  Search committees and denominational officials must consider the long-term impact on a young minister's career when placed in a declining church, or at least be straightforward about the church's history and stage of life.  
Leading with Transparency and CourageThroughout the process, Lorrin demonstrated the importance of being honest with congregants about the church's future, even when it was difficult. Her story highlights the necessity of courageous leadership, especially in times of crisis.  Lorrin confronted denial and anger in her congregation while still recognizing their faithfulness.
Closure as a Faithful DecisionWhile closing a church might seem like a failure, Lorrin reframes it as an act of faithfulness. She emphasizes that sometimes, the most faithful thing a church can do is to close, passing its legacy and resources on to a new community for future ministry.
Resources:
http://www.revlorrinradzik.com/
https://www.goodfridaycollaborative.com/
https://nationalhmongcaucusumc.weebly.com/

The Benediction: A Pastor's Guide to Church Closures

In this compelling episode of The Last Service Podcast, host Matt interviews Dave Meserve, an experienced transitional pastor who has guided multiple churches through the difficult process of closing. Dave shares powerful stories and invaluable insights on how to approach church closures with compassion, wisdom, and a focus on spiritual health.
Key Points:
Dave's unique journey from traditional ministry to becoming a "pastor at large" and transitional leader
The importance of addressing "faith ceilings" and allowing for spiritual growth in church leadership
Detailed accounts of two non-denominational church closures Dave facilitated
The critical role of trust-building and transparent communication during church transitions
How to create meaningful closing ceremonies that honor a church's history and provide closure
The significance of "staying for the benediction" - finding blessing in the ending process
Insights on matching pastoral leadership styles to church size and growth goals
The value of diverse leadership teams, including both men and women
Understanding churches as relationships with natural lifespans
Quotes: "Don't leave before the benediction - there's a blessing if you stay to the end." - Dave Meserve "Churches have lifespans. They have beginnings, long middles we hope, and ends." - Dave Meserve
Keywords: church closure, transitional pastor, faith ceiling, non-denominational churches, church leadership, pastoral care, church ceremonies, spiritual health, church size dynamics, diverse leadership, church lifespan
This episode offers essential guidance for church leaders, pastors, and congregants facing potential church closures or significant transitions. Dave Meserve's experiences provide a roadmap for approaching these challenging situations with grace, intentionality, and a focus on long-term spiritual wellbeing.

Church Closure: Gail Cafferata's Journey and Research Findings

In this episode, host Matt interviews Gail Cafferata, author of "The Last Pastor" and a retired Episcopal priest who closed a church. Gail shares her personal experience closing a congregation and insights from her research surveying over 100 pastors who have gone through church closures.
Key topics discussed:- Gail's background as a medical sociologist and Episcopal priest- The emotional and career toll of closing a church on pastors- How sailing metaphors can help understand church leadership - The importance of "differentiation" for pastors leading dying churches- Ways congregations and denominations can support pastors through closure- What constitutes a "good death" for a congregation
3 Key Takeaways:
1. Closing a church takes a significant emotional and career toll on pastors, with many experiencing stress, isolation, and difficulty finding new positions afterward.
2. "Differentiation" - maintaining healthy boundaries between oneself and the congregation - is crucial for pastors leading churches through closure.
3. A "good death" for a church involves celebrating its legacy, providing pastoral care, and empowering members to continue ministry elsewhere.
This episode provides valuable insights for pastors, church leaders, and anyone interested in the challenges facing declining congregations in America today.

Urban Skye: Innovative Ministry Beyond Church Walls with Mike Sares

In this episode, we sit down with Mike Sares, director of Urban Skye, to discuss their unique approach to ministry outside traditional church structures. Mike shares insights from his extensive experience, including pastoring Scum of the Earth Church and working with various faith entrepreneurs.
Key points covered:
• Urban Skye acts as an umbrella organization for freelance pastors, providing administrative support and spiritual community• Their model draws inspiration from St. Patrick's missionary approach of engaging culture• Mike discusses the importance of relationship-building and entering people's worlds rather than expecting them to enter the church's world• Urban Skye supports a wide variety of ministries, from prison outreach to counseling for missionaries to creative arts programs• The organization emphasizes experimentation and allows for failure as part of the growth process• Mike shares thoughts on how declining churches can learn from Urban Skye's flexible, relationship-focused approach
Mike provides a refreshing perspective on doing ministry in today's cultural landscape, emphasizing authenticity, humility, and a willingness to color outside the lines of traditional church structures. His insights are valuable for pastors, church leaders, and anyone interested in innovative approaches to faith and community.
3 Key Takeaways:
1. Effective ministry often happens outside church walls, meeting people where they are culturally and spiritually.2. Embracing failure and experimentation is crucial for spiritual growth and innovative ministry.3. Declining churches can benefit from focusing on relationships and being willing to change their approaches drastically.
 
Resources:
https://www.urbanskye.org/
https://www.mikesares.com/
Pure Scum by Mike Sares
https://scumoftheearth.net/
https://www.fiveironfrenzy.com/
 

The Jubilee Program: Rescuing Struggling Churches and Preserving Kingdom Assets with Bart McDonald

In this episode of The Last Service Podcast, host Matt interviews Bart McDonald from the Southern Baptist of Texas Foundation about their innovative Jubilee Program. This program helps struggling churches preserve their assets and legacy while transitioning to new ministries or congregations.
Key Points:
The Jubilee Program is based on biblical principles from Leviticus and Deuteronomy
It allows dying churches to transfer their property to the foundation, which then renovates and transfers it to new ministries
The program has rescued millions of dollars in church assets that may have otherwise been lost
It provides financial stability and guidance to both struggling churches and new church plants
The foundation takes a pastoral approach, encouraging churches that God is not disappointed in them
Quotes: "We don't want to hold a Jubilee property in our possession any longer than it takes to get it back into the hands of the local New Testament church." - Bart McDonald
"If God's people will get together and prayerfully seek the face of God, it's been my experience that God's people will almost always do the right thing." - Bart McDonald
Key Takeaways:
The Jubilee program applies real estate principles in a non-profit framework to give dying churches better options.
Partnering with other ministries to use empty church space is not always good stewardship - financial viability must be considered.
Churches often wait too late to ask for help. Declining churches should seek guidance early from denominational resources.
Call-to-Action: If you've been part of a church closing or merger, share your story by emailing lastservicepodcast@gmail.com
Related Topics: Church revitalization, Church planting, Baptist churches, Church property management, Legacy giving

Navigating Scarcity in the Church - Insights from Dr. Myles Werntz

In this episode of The Last Service Podcast, host Matt McGee interviews Dr. Myles Werntz, Associate Professor of Theology at Abilene Christian University. They discuss the concept of scarcity in churches and how it's affecting congregations across denominations. Dr. Werntz shares insights from his recent Christianity Today article "Scarcity's Strange Gifts" and explores the challenges and opportunities presented by resource constraints in modern church settings.
Key topics covered:
The psychological effects of scarcity on decision-making
Historical and biblical perspectives on church scarcity
Strategies for churches facing declining resources
The potential benefits and virtues developed through scarcity
The future of church staffing and ministry models
Three Key Takeaways:
Scarcity is becoming a widespread issue for churches across denominations, affecting resources, attendance, and staffing. This trend is likely to continue and requires new approaches to ministry.
While challenging, scarcity can provide unexpected benefits such as increased focus, empathy, and creativity in problem-solving. It may also foster the development of important virtues like courage and patience.
Churches may need to consider new models of ministry, including bi-vocational pastors, increased lay leadership, and resource sharing between congregations, to effectively navigate scarce conditions.
Keywords: church scarcity, declining resources, ministry challenges, church leadership, bi-vocational ministry, church attendance trends, Christian ethics, theology, church growth
Resources:
Scarcity's Strange Gifts by Myles Werntz
Myles Werntz's Substack
Howard Thurman

Navigating Church Decline and Closure with Dr. Stanley Granberg

In this episode of The Last Service Podcast, host Matt interviews Dr. Stanley Granberg, founder of Heritage 21, an organization dedicated to helping declining churches make critical decisions about their future. Dr. Granberg shares his extensive experience in church planting, missions, and organizational leadership, offering valuable insights into the challenges facing aging congregations.
Key topics discussed:
The Quick 50 Assessment: A simple tool to determine if a church needs to consider its existential future, based on three factors: church age, average member age, and attendance.
The threshold for church survivability: Why 60 in attendance is a crucial number for church sustainability and the shift from public to private spheres.
The concept of "stewarding God's mission" and how it applies to churches in various stages of life, including decline.
The five systems that impact church health: theological, missional, leadership, relational, and physical.
The importance of perspective and making proactive decisions before reaching a stage of "leadership dementia."
A case study of a church closure that resulted in positive outcomes and the continuation of God's mission through new church plants.
The challenges of conflict resolution in declining churches and the impact on closure decisions.
The inevitability of system failures in churches and the opportunity for renewal.
Dr. Granberg emphasizes the importance of courage, facing reality, and putting plans on paper to gain perspective when dealing with church decline. He encourages church leaders to view their situation objectively and make informed decisions about their future.
3 Key Takeaways:
The Quick 50 Assessment (50 years old, 50 average age, 50 or fewer in attendance) is a useful tool for identifying churches that may need to consider their long-term viability.
Church planters consider 60 in regular attendance to be an indicator of viability. 60 feels like a crowd and has adequate energy to do ministry.
Addressing church decline requires a systems-thinking approach.  Churches are a network of systems.  Like organs in a body, the systems will eventually fail.
Resources:
Empty Church: Why People Don't Come and What to Do About It by Dr. Stanley Granberg
Heritage 21