The Last Service Podcast

The Jubilee Program: Rescuing Struggling Churches and Preserving Kingdom Assets with Bart McDonald

In this episode of The Last Service Podcast, host Matt interviews Bart McDonald from the Southern Baptist of Texas Foundation about their innovative Jubilee Program. This program helps struggling churches preserve their assets and legacy while transitioning to new ministries or congregations.
Key Points:
The Jubilee Program is based on biblical principles from Leviticus and Deuteronomy
It allows dying churches to transfer their property to the foundation, which then renovates and transfers it to new ministries
The program has rescued millions of dollars in church assets that may have otherwise been lost
It provides financial stability and guidance to both struggling churches and new church plants
The foundation takes a pastoral approach, encouraging churches that God is not disappointed in them
Quotes: "We don't want to hold a Jubilee property in our possession any longer than it takes to get it back into the hands of the local New Testament church." - Bart McDonald
"If God's people will get together and prayerfully seek the face of God, it's been my experience that God's people will almost always do the right thing." - Bart McDonald
Key Takeaways:
The Jubilee program applies real estate principles in a non-profit framework to give dying churches better options.
Partnering with other ministries to use empty church space is not always good stewardship - financial viability must be considered.
Churches often wait too late to ask for help. Declining churches should seek guidance early from denominational resources.
Call-to-Action: If you've been part of a church closing or merger, share your story by emailing lastservicepodcast@gmail.com
Related Topics: Church revitalization, Church planting, Baptist churches, Church property management, Legacy giving

Navigating Scarcity in the Church - Insights from Dr. Myles Werntz

In this episode of The Last Service Podcast, host Matt McGee interviews Dr. Myles Werntz, Associate Professor of Theology at Abilene Christian University. They discuss the concept of scarcity in churches and how it's affecting congregations across denominations. Dr. Werntz shares insights from his recent Christianity Today article "Scarcity's Strange Gifts" and explores the challenges and opportunities presented by resource constraints in modern church settings.
Key topics covered:
The psychological effects of scarcity on decision-making
Historical and biblical perspectives on church scarcity
Strategies for churches facing declining resources
The potential benefits and virtues developed through scarcity
The future of church staffing and ministry models
Three Key Takeaways:
Scarcity is becoming a widespread issue for churches across denominations, affecting resources, attendance, and staffing. This trend is likely to continue and requires new approaches to ministry.
While challenging, scarcity can provide unexpected benefits such as increased focus, empathy, and creativity in problem-solving. It may also foster the development of important virtues like courage and patience.
Churches may need to consider new models of ministry, including bi-vocational pastors, increased lay leadership, and resource sharing between congregations, to effectively navigate scarce conditions.
Keywords: church scarcity, declining resources, ministry challenges, church leadership, bi-vocational ministry, church attendance trends, Christian ethics, theology, church growth
Resources:
Scarcity's Strange Gifts by Myles Werntz
Myles Werntz's Substack
Howard Thurman

Navigating Church Decline and Closure with Dr. Stanley Granberg

In this episode of The Last Service Podcast, host Matt interviews Dr. Stanley Granberg, founder of Heritage 21, an organization dedicated to helping declining churches make critical decisions about their future. Dr. Granberg shares his extensive experience in church planting, missions, and organizational leadership, offering valuable insights into the challenges facing aging congregations.
Key topics discussed:
The Quick 50 Assessment: A simple tool to determine if a church needs to consider its existential future, based on three factors: church age, average member age, and attendance.
The threshold for church survivability: Why 60 in attendance is a crucial number for church sustainability and the shift from public to private spheres.
The concept of "stewarding God's mission" and how it applies to churches in various stages of life, including decline.
The five systems that impact church health: theological, missional, leadership, relational, and physical.
The importance of perspective and making proactive decisions before reaching a stage of "leadership dementia."
A case study of a church closure that resulted in positive outcomes and the continuation of God's mission through new church plants.
The challenges of conflict resolution in declining churches and the impact on closure decisions.
The inevitability of system failures in churches and the opportunity for renewal.
Dr. Granberg emphasizes the importance of courage, facing reality, and putting plans on paper to gain perspective when dealing with church decline. He encourages church leaders to view their situation objectively and make informed decisions about their future.
3 Key Takeaways:
The Quick 50 Assessment (50 years old, 50 average age, 50 or fewer in attendance) is a useful tool for identifying churches that may need to consider their long-term viability.
Church planters consider 60 in regular attendance to be an indicator of viability. 60 feels like a crowd and has adequate energy to do ministry.
Addressing church decline requires a systems-thinking approach.  Churches are a network of systems.  Like organs in a body, the systems will eventually fail.
Resources:
Empty Church: Why People Don't Come and What to Do About It by Dr. Stanley Granberg
Heritage 21

The Potluck: The Role of Media in Modern Church Worship with Dr. Jim Y. Trammell

In this special "Potluck" episode of The Last Service Podcast, host Matt McGee catches up with his old friend, Dr. Jim Trammell, Associate Professor of Communication at High Point University, a frequent contributor to Baptist News Global, and deacon at Emerywood Baptist Church, to discuss the evolving role of media in modern church worship. They explore how technology and media shape congregations, online church services' pros and cons, and the challenges facing traditional and contemporary worship styles.
Key Topics Discussed:
The impact of media and technology on church services
Differences between traditional and contemporary worship spaces
The rise of online church and its effects on community
Balancing evangelism and discipleship in media-driven churches
The inevitability of church closures and how to approach them
The "coolness factor" in modern worship and its implications
Notable Quotes: "In a lot of contemporary media-centric churches, media is so important to how they do worship that if you eliminate all the electronic media, you no longer have a service." - Dr. Jim Trammell 
Keyword Tags:church media, worship technology, online church, church closures, contemporary worship, traditional worship, evangelism, discipleship, church community

Revitalizing Church Through the Dinner Church Movement with Verlon Fosner

Discover how the Dinner Church Collective is revitalizing the way we experience church and reach the unchurched. In this thought-provoking episode, Verlon Fosner shares his journey of transforming a dying church into a vibrant community centered around the simple act of gathering for a meal and engaging with the stories of Jesus. Learn about the sociological challenges facing modern churches, the surprising spiritual experiences witnessed at Jesus' tables, and the growth of this innovative approach across the country. Gain insights into building an inclusive and accessible form of worship that resonates with those disconnected from traditional church settings.
Outline:
Introduction to Verlon Fosner and his background
The decline of his church and the realization of a sociological problem
The idea of Dinner Church and its origins in the New Testament
The structure and format of a Dinner Church gathering
The impact of Dinner Church on isolated and unchurched individuals
The surprising spiritual experiences and healings witnessed at Jesus' tables
The growth of the Dinner Church movement across the country
Resources for learning more about Dinner Church
Key Takeaways:
Despite everyone's best efforts Westminster Community was unsuccessful at revitalizing.  Revitalization came by becoming aware of the sociological needs of their surrounding community.  Verlon used words like 'rescue' and 'recovery' to describe their new sense of mission, rather than words like 'reach' and 'attract' which are often associated with church growth.
Verlon's five aspects of what makes a church a church are a great way to measure the health of your church beyond just attendance or membership:
Worship
Fellowship
Discipleship
Evangelism
Compassion
The apostolic age of the church might be the best place to look for inspiration on how to be a church in an unchurched world.  Given our society's current rates of loneliness, isolation and division, it's not that surprising to see Westminster Community Assembly of God grow across a city by building tables rather than auditoriums.
Resources:
https://www.dinnerchurch.com/

Small Things Well with Karl Vaters, author of De-sizing the Church: How Church Growth Became a Science, Then an Obsession, and What's Next

Karl Vaters joins The Last Service Podcast to discuss the unique challenges and opportunities facing small churches. With over 40 years of pastoral experience and as the author of several books on small church ministry, Karl provides valuable insights to help small congregations thrive.
Key Topics:
- Defining what constitutes a "small church"- The obsession with big church models and church growth movements - Finding metrics beyond attendance to assess church health- Navigating successful pastoral transitions and succession plans- The life cycle of churches and signs it may be ending- Creating a positive legacy when a church closes
Quotes:
"We have to be thinking more innovatively and creatively than just the church building itself." - Karl Vaters on repurposing church facilities
"Integrity is the new competence. We've been teaching primarily management tools for 30 years. People aren't leaving because we didn't get techniques right, but because of a lack of integrity." - Vaters
"There does come a point where a church closing becomes inevitable...you have to be proactive and make difficult decisions." - Vaters on knowing when to end well
Listen to this insightful episode to gain wisdom for thriving as a small congregation or navigating a church's ending with Christ-centered integrity.
3 Key Takeaways:
1. Small churches are different animals than large churches, and bigger isn't always better.  Be careful of applying big church solutions and tools to small churches and find ways to define the church's health beyond Sunday morning attendance.
2. Pastor transitions can cause existential problems for a church.  They require time, intention, and clear communication. 
3. We can think of a church's lifecycle like flowing down a river.  There will be an ending.  We must be aware of where we are in our life cycle and pay attention to the signs of what's coming.  When we've passed the point of no return, let Christ be your legacy and do the work to ensure the remaining resources build the kingdom of God.  
Resources:
karlvaters.com
Karl's books, including De-Sizing the Church
Church Lobby Podcast
Ignatian Spirituality
Les McKeown and Carey Nieuwhof on Church Life Cycles

Navigating Church Closures and Mergers with Erika Cole, The Church Attorney

In this insightful episode, Matt talks with Erika Cole, known as the Church Attorney, about navigating the legal process of church closures and mergers. Erika provides a wealth of knowledge on checklist items, vital documents, legal steps, and wisdom for churches going through this transition.
As churches across America continue to close at an alarming rate, having proper legal guidance is crucial for a good ending. Erika Cole, the renowned Church Attorney, joins the podcast to walk through the important steps churches need to take when facing a closure or merger. From collecting vital documents to understanding decision-making processes, asset distribution, and finding the right legal counsel - Erika covers it all with competence, character and compassion. This is an invaluable episode for any church leader contemplating the future of their congregation.
Keywords: church closing, church merger, nonprofit law, church attorney, church leadership, legal counsel for churches, ministry transition, ending well
Listen to this powerful discussion to gain Erika's expert guidance for churches approaching their final chapter. Her wisdom will help ensure an inspirational and God-honoring conclusion.
Key Takeaways
Cultivate a culture of self-assessment - this will help you recognize signs of decline and give you a healthy amount of time to weigh options and end well.
Find your critical legal documents and review them every two years - Use The Church Attorney's Checklist (see below)
Erika's love for the church shines throughout our conversation. Look for an attorney with Competence, Character, and Compassion—someone who has experience in non-profits and churches, not just businesses and contracts. 
Resources:
www.erikacole.com
Church Law Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/church-law/id1586340872
Masterclass: https://www.erikacole.com/thechurchattorney-masterclass
The Church Attorney's Guide to Church Mergers: https://www.erikacole.com/shop/p/the-church-attorneys-guide-to-church-mergers
Church Legal Document Checklist

Ending Well: A Guide to Faithful Church Closures with Diane Kenaston of Good Friday Collaborative

In this episode, Matt is joined by Rev. Diane Kenaston, co-founder of The Good Friday Collaborative. They discuss how churches can approach the difficult process of closing, merging, or consolidating ministries faithfully and pastorally. Diane shares her own experience leading a church through a merger and the valuable lessons learned. She also unpacks the five stages of church closures outlined by The Good Friday Collaborative as a framework for congregations.
Key Topics:- The origins of The Good Friday Collaborative- Diane's personal story of leading a church through merger - Dealing with the stigma and shame around church closure- The 5 stages of church closures: Quiet Wondering, Naming & Normalizing, Intentional Decision Making, Planning for Final Ministry, Leading Final Ministry- Providing spiritual care for "last pastors" overseeing church closures- Overcoming exhaustion to achieve a good, faithful ending- Embracing death and new beginnings as part of the church's resurrection  
Key Quotes:"We need to approach discernment with open hands, listening for how God is guiding us." "A good ending is when the congregation has the chance to say thank you, I love you, I'm sorry, and I forgive you.""Dying is inevitable, so church closures are inevitable. But we believe in resurrection and new beginnings too."
This insightful episode is a must-listen for any church leader grappling with decline and facing difficult decisions about their congregation's future. Rev. Kenaston provides compassionate, theologically grounded wisdom for navigating church closures faithfully.
3 takeaways:
1. Many pastors at declining congregations are relatively young and in the first half of their careers.  Closing a church earlier in life could profoundly impact the pastor's career for decades.  Do what you can to provide spiritual aftercare for the pastor who has guided a congregation through merger or closure.  It will impact future generations of the church.
2. Good Friday Collaborative 5 Stages of Closure is an invaluable framework for the spiritual, emotional, and logistical path to ending well.  Read it and study it long before your church is in decline.
3. Rev. Kenaston's church was beautifully intentional about every aspect of their merger despite their exhaustion.  I'm sure it wasn't perfect, but they found joy during their grief.  They made decisions in keeping with where they believed God had called them until their final service.  And then they were made into something new.  This is the work of a good shepherd. 
 
Resources:
https://www.goodfridaycollaborative.com/
Church Closure in 5 Stages: https://www.goodfridaycollaborative.com/writing/church-closure-in-five-stages
Article: How to Avoid the Stained-Glass Cliff When Leading a Dying Church: https://faithandleadership.com/how-avoid-falling-the-stained-glass-cliff-when-leading-dying-church
The Last Pastor by Gail Cafferata: https://www.amazon.com/Last-Pastor-Gail-Cafferata/dp/0664264980

The Potluck: Why start a podcast about dying churches? - with Matt McGee and Michael Lomuscio

In this special "Potluck" episode of The Last Service Podcast, host Matt McGee is interviewed by his friend Michael Lomuscio about the origins of the podcast, the declining state of church attendance and membership, and what constitutes a good or bad church closing.
Key Topics:
Matt's background and what sparked his interest in researching closing churches
Statistics on dropping church membership and attendance rates in the United States
The possibility that more churches in America closed than opened in 2019 for the first time
The rise of the "nones" - those with no religious affiliation
Economic factors like deferred maintenance costs contributing to church closures
Examples of good vs. bad ways for a church to close down
Continuing the gospel mission vs. hoarding resources with no community impact
Resources:
Reorganized Religion by Bob Smietana
Fullstack Educator Podcast
Gone for Good? Negotiating the Coming Wave of Church Property Transition
Ryan Burge

Courageous Honesty for for Churches at the End of Their Life Cycle with John Muzyka of Church Realty

In this episode, Matt interviews John Muzyka, a church real estate expert, about how churches can navigate the end of their life cycle well. John provides wise counsel on assessing property needs, making tough decisions with church committees, finding the right realtor, and determining if the building still serves the church's mission.
3 takeaways for dying churches:
1. Think of your building as a tool for ministry.  Tools expire, and your building may not be the right tool for your congregation during this phase of ministry.  Keep in mind that getting people in the building doesn't necessarily mean your church is ministering to them if you don't actually have a relationship with the clients your tenant serves.
2. Consider how you can right-size your building to reduce maintenance costs and utilize a space that fits the size of your congregation.  
3. Closing may not be inevitable, but it is normal.  Churches are full of human beings who make mistakes, miss opportunities, and resist change.  The question is how we move forward.  Practice courageous honesty and ask yourselves how God is leading you to steward the resources you've been given.  Get help when you need it.
Resources:
John's Contact: info@churchrealty.com
www.churchrealty.com
Church Leaders, Are Your Decisions Missional or Emotional? - by John Muzyka
Southern Baptists of Texas Foundation - Jubilee Program Client Story: https://www.sbtexasfoundation.com/articles/imagechurch
 
Keywords: church closures, church mergers, church life cycle, church property, church real estate, selling church buildings, donating church buildings, church committees, pastoring a dying church